UK/Deep state

UK/Deep state (Deep state)
Abbreviation	UKDS
Headquarters	London
Interests	UK, British Empire
Interest of	T. J. Coles, Crimes of Britain, Matthew Ehret, Tony Gosling, Richard Grove, Patrick Henningsen, Richard Keeble, Stanley Monteith, Simon Regan, Mike Robinson
Exposed by	Dr. David Bell, Carroll Quigley, Carne Ross
The British empire has long been influenced by various mostly unseen forces. These are being increasingly exposed in the 21st century. After WWI, the UK deep state increasingly came under the influence of the US deep state.

The UK deep state (UKDS) goes back centuries, as does the age of "democratic" government in the UK although this website has little about the British Empire or before. The pre-WWII history of the UK/US deep state described below is heavily influenced by Carroll Quigley's The Anglo-American Establishment.

History

The UK was a monarchy for centuries, so the extent to which a functional deep state existed inevitably varied according to the personality of any particular monarch and his (or, occasionally her) royal entourage. The rules of succession were occasionally disputed (most notably in the Wars of the Roses), providing opportunities for deep politicians to act as kingmakers who could mount the requisite armed men (or maybe just hire an assassin) to mount a challenge to the reigning monarch and put forward their own candidate.

City of London

Full article: City of London

The City of London is a small area (a.k.a. the "Square Mile") in central London with a long history of legal privilege. Its origins are undocumented, but it goes back at least as far as the Norman Conquest. Around 1189, the City gained the right to have its own mayor.

Middle Ages

Magna Carta was signed in 1215, in the reign of King John. It states that "the City of London shall have/enjoy its ancient liberties".. It created the UK parliament, which was a unicameral system which had no pretence of elections until 1265. It has developed in form and function over the centuries, but remains situated in London, which had been the been the capital city, and the centre of governance, banking, commerce and therefore also of the UK deep state for centuries. As the market economy increased in importance in the middle ages, groups of traders aquired influence -- for example the Merchant Venturers of Bristol. While the influence of regional nobility and military commanders gradually began to be eclipsed by that of international financiers, the UK royal family remained of central importance.

Bank of England

Full article: Bank of England

The Bank of England was set up in 1694 (the world's second central bank) by king William III as a compromise with the financiers who, increasingly well organised, were ever more reluctant to lend him money for military ventures. They were granted a royal monopoly on the right to issue UK pounds out of nothing (and charge interest on them). Since this meant that an unlimited number of pounds could be created, it was easier for the king to borrow money from them when he wanted to raise an army. Originally a private business, it was nationalised in 1946 and placed under nominal government control. As with many deep state groups, financiers and central bankers have played a key role in the deep state in the UK.

18th Century

Bullingdon Club

Full article: Bullingdon Club

The Bullingdon Club in the late 19th century

Founded in 1780, as a Oxford University sporting club, the Bullingdon Club developed into an elite dining and drinking with a reputation for drunken antics and property damage. This developed into an important milieu for UK deep state groups. Members include Boris Johnson, George Osborne and David Cameron.

19th Century

Russ Winter writes that "According to Rothshild archives, in 1875, the London banking house of N.M. Rothschild & Sons advanced the prime minister, Benjamin Disraeli, acting for the British government, £4 million to purchase Suez Canal shares. Disraeli was a close personal friend of Lionel de Rothschild and, “according to legend”, this was transacted on a gentleman’s agreement, with no documentation, a technically unsecured loan for a sum of over £550 million today."

The Milner Group

Full article: The Milner Group

In February 1891 the millionaire mining magnate Cecil Rhodes formed a secret society which although -- or perhaps, because -- it was highly influential is still largely unknown because its members had positions of great influence in the teaching of history in the UK (in particular, in Oxford university's Corpus Christi college) and used this influence to expunge many traces of their influence from the historical record, as the seminal deep politics researcher Carroll Quigley exposed in The Anglo-American Establishment: “One wintry afternoon in February 1891, three men were engaged in earnest conversation in London. From that conversation were to flow consequences of the greatest importance to the British Empire and to the world as a whole. For these men were organizing a secret society that was for more than fifty years to be one of the most important forces in the formulation and execution of British imperial and foreign policy.”

Jim Macgregor & Gerry Docherty lay out detailed claims in their book Hidden History: The Secret Origins Of The First World War how the Secret Elite, pursuing a shared vision of a global British Empire, deliberately engineered World War I in an effort to check the rise of their teutonic rival.

“Five principal players, Cecil Rhodes, William Stead, Lord Reginald Esher, Lord Nathaniel Rothschild and Alfred Milner were the founding fathers, but the secret society developed rapidly in numbers, power and presence in the years before 1914. Influential old aristocratic families that had long dominated Westminster were more deeply involved, as was King Edward VII, who operated within the inner core of the Secret Elite. Cecil Rhodes, a mining magnate who made millions in South Africa, had long talked about setting up a Jesuit-like secret society, pledged to take any action necessary to protect and promote the power of the British Empire. He sought to "bring the whole uncivilized world under British rule, for the recovery of the United States, for the making of the Anglo-Saxon race but one empire." * In essence the plan was as simple as that.”
Jim Macgregor,  Gerry Docherty
* W. T. Stead, The Last Will And Testament of Cecil Rhodes, p.59

20th Century

Committee of Imperial Defence

Full article: Committee of Imperial Defence

The UK Prime Minister Arthur Balfour formed the Committee of Imperial Defence which prepared Britain for war.

The Pilgrims Society

Full article: The Pilgrims Society

The Pilgrims society, which began in the UK in 1902 and in the USA in 1903 was a deep state milieux of major importance to the Anglo-American establishment. It was (and is) a dining club attended by a select group including financiers, central bankers, diplomats, soldiers, politicians and of course deep politicians.

World War I

Full article: World War I

The UK establishment worked hard to get the US involved in World War I, overcoming an isolationism which wanted no part in the European's war. Woodrow Wilson was a compliant deep state functionary, campaigning with the slogan "he kept us out of the war" while planning how to mobilise the US population for war. The sinking of the Lusitania was an important step in this process.

Interwar years

Personally enriched by World War I, members of the Secret Elite continued to be important in determining the constitution and policies of the UK government. As the relative power of the British Empire began to decline as respect to the rapidly industrialising USA, the centre of deep political gravity moved across the atlantic from London to Washington. The Cliveden Set (a term coined in 1937) were a faction of the deep state researched by Carroll Quigley. They were sympathetic to fascism and their influence did not survive World War II.

World War II

Full article: World War II

The WW2/Attack on Pearl Harbor was presented to the US public as a surprise event.

In a repeat performance of the first World War, the UK establishment worked to get the US involved in World War II, overcoming resistance from a US population which was not enthusiastic. The turning point was the Japanese invasion of Pearl Harbor. This was announced to the US public as a bolt from the blue, although various people have disputed this, including John Ainsworth-Davis, who claimed to have sunk an allied submarine to perpetuate the illusion that it was a surprise.

Post 1945

The USSR, although a wartime ally, quickly came to be feared. There ensued a dacades long rivalry known as the Cold War, which was a defining influence on geopolitics for most of the rest of the 20th century. There was an associated rush to create nuclear weapons (the UK was the second nation state to do so after the USA developed the atomic bombs with which in brought WWII to a close), which necessitated the creation of nuclear power stations to create the fissile isotopes.

An analogous defining influence on the geo-deep political arena was Operation Gladio, a.k.a. the 'stay behind network', which crystallised around the end of WWII in Europe. This trained teams of men and provisioned them with military supplies such as weapons, explosives, radios, gold etc. This continent wide network was so secret that heads of governments were often not informed about it. Under the loose control of the team of spooks who set it up, it was used by the CIA (and MI6? remained secret until the 1980s, when the determination of Italian judge Felice Casson combined with laziness and corruption of its members to bring the group to national prominence. The operation was (and arguably still is) of defining importance in understanding "terrorism" in the Europe, which has been important once in the 20th century - "the troubles" associated with the Irish Republican movement. In the 21st century this was reinvented as Operation Gladio/B, which replaced fascists with Muslims to institute the "war on terror".

1950s

The first Bilderberg, 1954

Two important deep state milieux were started in continental Europe in the early 1950s - the Pinay Cercle and the Bilderberg, both of which remained almost unknown to the general public for over 50 years. Born out of the Cold War, the former was extremely anti-communist in its make up and was initially unknown in UK deep political circles, but was to assume major importance in the 1970s, after Brian Crozier became chair of the group. The Bilderberg actively promoted European Union and closer ties with the USA. The first Bilderberg had several UK participants:- Colin Gubbins (who was one of the first 12 men approached by Jozef Retinger as he was planning the formation of the group)Clement Davies, Oliver Franks, Hugh Gaitskell, H. Montgomery Hyde, Robert Boothby, Harry Pilkington and Tom Williamson.

1960s

Elm Guest House, a notorious UK VIPaedophile venue

The Clermont Set was a deep state milieu in London whose members were compulsive gamblers and womanisers with multiple connections to other groups including the Bilderberg and Le Cercle. After homosexuality was made legal in England in the 1960s it was replaced with under age sexual contact as a standard tool of sexual blackmail by the UK intelligence agencies. Particularly notorious venues included Dolphin Square (conveniently located for Westminster), the Elm Guest House (also in London) and the Kincora Boys Home in Northern Ireland.

1970s

A jubilant Margaret Thatcher announces her election as UK Prime Minister after the work of Brian Crozier's Shield committee.

Harold Wilson was unseated after Clockwork Orange, a UK deep state operation to remove him as prime minister. The deep state blocked his efforts to ban mercenaries, arguing that the services of Keenie Meenie Services were essential to the safety of UK diplomats abroad.

In the 1970s, Margaret Thatcher rose to lead first the UK Conservative party and in 1979 the UK. Her victory in the 1979 General Election was the focus of the Shield committee, a deep state group which was publicly unexposed until co-founder Brian Crozier revealed its existence in his memoirs. The leaked Langemann Papers detail a successful operation to achieve a regime change in the UK, suggesting that Le Cercle was behind Thatcher's election victory.

Paedophile Information Exchange

Full article: Paedophile Information Exchange

The Paedophile Information Exchange, set up in 1974, attracted the attention of some UK politicians and other key establishment figures. Since then, many top politicians have been alleged to have been active paedophiles, and numerous investigations were carried out, but the fixed pattern was that after evidence had been gathered and statements taken, high level authorities either misplaced the dossiers of evidence or decided not to continue with the prosecutions. The VIPaedophile phenomenon only gained traction after Jimmy Saville was posthumously outed as a serial rapist, necrophilia and child abuser. The fact that he was a highly public figure, and that his sexual proclivities still a subject of rumour for decades.

Le Cercle

Full article: Le Cercle

Various circumstantial evidence connects Le Cercle to multi-billion pound arms deals and it was closely connected to the 1979 JCIT which launched the global effort to promote "terrorism" as a replacement threat for the MICC. A close friend of Margaret Thatcher, Airey Neave, was killed by a car bomb in Westminster, officially by the IRA, after reportedly talking of "cleaning the stables" as far as the UK intelligence agencies.

1980s

In the UK, 'Thatcherism' was used to describe the policy of privatization and "deregulation" - advancing a similar economic agenda to the cabal led administrations of Ronald Reagan and George H. W. Bush. This was initially unpopular and Thatcher's government was decidedly unpopular until the Falklands War. She went on, however to win 3 successive elections. Although she had favourably impressed the 1975 Bilderberg, she later fell out with them, possibly because she announced herself unwilling to swap the UK Pound for of the Euro. Thatcher is reported^{[By whom?]} to have been involved in various corrupt arms deals to funnel money into Tory central office.

The BBC purchased an expose entitled Secret Society about her secret cabinet committees, but later decided not to broadcast it.

1990s

After a decade of disillusionment under Conservative party rule, Tony Blair was elected to power in the 1997 General election. Blair's deep state connections were not widely known at the time. Later it emerged that a prep school friend, Bill Gammell, was also a close friend of George W. Bush, because his father was an investor in Bush-Overbey which George H. W. Bush owned. Blair maintained a "close relationship" with Bush as the Western commercially-controlled media put it - i.e. was to a compliant puppet of the cabal.

21st Century

The "War on Terror" has seen the "counter-terrorism" industry profit greatly from an unprecedented militarization of UK law and society. The UK's foreign intelligence agency, MI6, is increasingly well understood to be closely aligned with elements of the CIA and the Mossad. Public apathy and establishment inaction in the face of documentary evidence of illegal universal surveillance by intelligence agencies, as announced by Edward Snowden, have effectively normalised the practice.After around 2015, the UK deep state has been active in stoking Russophobia.

September 11, 2001

Full article: 9-11

A still unexplained glitch in the matrix of 9-11

In the UK, the events of September 11, 2001 were reported on by the UK corporate media as uncritically as in other Western European nation states. The BBC did carry reports of bombs going off in the world trade center on the day, but these were not repeated. A remarkable report which is still not adequately explained by the BBC was that WTC7 had collapsed about 20 minutes before it actually did. The UK deep state successfully repressed any serious examination of the circumstances in favour of the US governments "19 hijackers" line, although the BBC did report that several^{[How many?]} of the purported 19 hijackers were still alive.

7-7 Bombings

Full article: 2005 London bombings

A headline about the killing of Jean Charles de Menezes. The Metropolitan Police's attempts to cover-up his murder were exposed by Lana Vandenberghe

In London on the 7th July 2005, people were killed by explosions at 4 locations, an event which was blamed on "Islamic terrorists" and was exploited to advance the global deep state agenda of rolling back civil liberties while rolling out a police state with increased use of armed police, mass surveillance etc. No CCTV of the bombings has been released, reportedly due to technical problems by Verint Systems, the Israeli owned company which was responsible for the London Transport CCTV. Tony Blair was incommunicado on a plane at the time of the bombings.

2010s - Increased scepticism - Cold War II

Full article: Cold War II

With public suspicion growing about the purposes of the "War on Terror", a decision was made to try to reboot the Cold War. In 2015, Chris Donnelly founded the Integrity Initiative to promote Russophobia in an attempt to help start Cold War II. Under cover of exposing Russian "disinformation", this group planted its own disinformation and established clandestine networks of influence to try to prevent the appointment of Putin-friendly officials in key positions. The UK deep state has continued to promote war on Syria. The UK public however are increasingly suspicious of broadcasts such as Saving Syria's children, which was broadcast just after a vote in the UK parliament about bombing Syria, and by the BBC's own admission featured unannounced audio editing and used "unverified" footage which alleged chemical weapon use by the Syrian government..

Skripal Affair

Full article: Skripal Affair

How Colin Powell might have made the case for Russian involvement in the Scripal Affair

In March 2018, Sergei Skripal and his daughter were acutely ill, reportedly from novichok poisoning. Although the formula for novichok was publicly known, the UK government claimed that the fact that it was first synthesised in the USSR was strong evidence that Russia was behind the attack.

The Integrity Initiative Leak revealed that the UK government sponsored Integrity Initiative was intensely interested in public perceptions about this event and was using its now shuttered website to promote the UK official narrative of the attack.

Institute for Statecraft/Integrity Initiative

Full articles: Institute for Statecraft, Integrity Initiative

In November 2018 'Anonymous' leaked documents about the Integrity Initiative, a project of the Institute for Statecraft. This serious of 7 leaks spanning nearly 6 months revealed that the hitherto unnoticed charity was in fact an organ of the UK deep state involved in propaganda and subversion — while projecting these same activities on Russia. Senior fellows included a number of known spooks or deep state operatives and several others with spooky connections. The group's leader, Chris Donnelly, appears to be suffering from permanent war mentality, and the documents reveal that this ethos permeates the group.

Promotion of Cold War 2.0 and Russophobia worldwide by exposing "Russian propaganda" was one of the group's main activities. It was also active in working with groups such as the Active Change Foundation to promote the "war on terror" and researching use of social media in perception management.

"Clusters"

Full article: Integrity Initiative/Clusters

Starting in late 2016, the Integrity Initiative planned to expand its influence by metastasising globally. Focusing mostly on Europe, it adopted a cell-like structure of "clusters" which involved dozens (if not hundreds) of selected individuals. The group was continuing to metastasise at the time of the leak. Documents reveal that such clusters had spread to over 20 nation states in at least 4 continents.

COVID-19

A delegation of armed police visit a gym in Liverpool in October 2020 to impose a fine and demand it be shut down immediately.

Full article: COVID-19/Lockdown

The UK aggressively promoted a lockdown.

Mass surveillance

“The UK's communications watchdog Ofcom has overturned its ban on the use of GSM gateways (COMUGs) for overseas phone calls – leaving one of the longest prosecutions in modern English legal history hanging in the balance. The decision comes after a controversial public consultation exercise held earlier this year, in which The Register caught the Home Office's secret spy powers unit trying to anonymously lobby the regulator and keep the ban.”
Gareth Corfield (10 July 2017) 

Exposure

Alan Francovich's Operation Gladio film (broadcast on the BBC) revealed that MI6 had an important role in Operation Gladio.

Whistleblowers

Many whistleblowers have reported in single issues, but few have expressed understanding of larger forces at work. An exception is Carne Ross, whose article in The Observer published on 25 July 2010 spoke directly about the UK Deep state's blocking of crucial files to the Chilcot inquiry. It began “I testified last week to the Chilcot inquiry. My experience demonstrates an emerging and dangerous problem with the process. This is not so much a problem with Sir John Chilcot and his panel, but rather with the government bureaucracy – Britain's own "deep state" – that is covering up its mistakes and denying access to critical documents... I asked for access to all the documents I had worked on as Britain's Iraq "expert" at the UN Security Council, including intelligence assessments, records of discussions with the US, and the long paper trail on the WMD dossier.

Large files were sent to me to peruse at the UK mission to the UN. However, long hours spent reviewing the files revealed that most of the key documents I had asked for were not there. I was told that specific documents, such as the records of prime minister Tony Blair's visit to Syria, could not be found. This is simply not plausible.”

In 2018, The Guardian reported that 44% of the UK population believed "the most widespread conspiracy belief", that “Even though we live in what's called a democracy, a few people will always run things in this country anyway.” This compares to 3/4 of the US population whose greatest fear in 2017 was of "corrupt government officials".

Integrity Initiative Leak

Full article: Integrity Initiative/Leak

In November 2018, 'Anonymous' published a tranche of internal documents online from the Integrity Initiative. The documents revealed that the II had established "clusters" that it had used to subvert the political process by coordinated release of information, and that it was researching the role of social media in shaping public perceptions about the Skripal affair. Many members of the Institute for Statecraft are spooks, many are "terror experts" or work in "anti-corruption", many have directorships, many are multilingual and several have worked as "advisors" to senior figures in the UK government. Most have tried to erase all sign of their affiliation with the Integrity Initiative/Institute for Statecraft, although the IfS operations have continued.

Cover-up

The Milner Group had a tight control over the UK's historical record through its clique of historians at Oxford University's Corpus Christi College who collaborated to try to remove evidence of the group's existence from the historical record.

The modern UK deep state seems less proficient at covering its tracks, and faces a much tougher job in the age of the internet, the independent media and the Streisand Effect.

Corporate media

Since the popularisation of the term in February 2017, the commercially-controlled media in the UK have written various pieces about the phrase "UK deep state".

In March 2018, Mike Smith headlined an article for the Daily Mirror "What evidence is there that a 'Deep State' exists in Britain - and is it secretly ruling the country?" It began "Conspiracy theorists believe a shadowy society of elite individuals is controlling our lives". Reporting on the opinions of Steve Hilton, it commented that when "Steve Hilton talks about the deep state, he’s really referring to the Civil Service", which it termed "the least sinister conspiracy theory in the world." However, it concluded "the idea of wealthy men deciding issues of national interest over a drink in a smoky sitting room, surrounded by oak panelling and leather armchairs, may sound fanciful. But perhaps it is more realistic than you think…"

Integrity Initiative Cover up

{{FA|Integrity Initiative/Cover_up Commercially-controlled media studiously reporting on the Integrity Initiative Leak, although it was discussed in the UK parliament. The Wikipedia page for the group was removed after 6 days.

In late January 2019, the Integrity Initiative and its parent group, the Institute for Statecraft both "temporarily" shut down their websites after continued exposure in the independent media, although archive sites had copies of its staff list, which when supplemented by the leaked documents have allowed for research into the group.

In 2020, English Wikipedia still had an entry about the group, although only 3 sentences mentioned the leak.

COVID-19 Lockdown

Full article: COVID-19/Lockdown/UK

Boris Johnson announced in 2020^[When?] that the best advice he had was that the UK could not avoid mass infection by COVID-19. This was quickly reversed to fall in line with the Supranational Deep State's plan of global COVID lockdowns.^[When?]

 

Events carried out

Event	Location	Description
BBC/Censorship		The BBC has been censored since its inception, although it purports not to be.
BBC/Propaganda		The BBC has been a tool of the UK deep state since its foundation in 1922.
Clockwork Orange	UK	UK deep state campaign carried out to discredit the government of Harold Wilson
Operation Gladio/B		A development of Operation Gladio to help roll out the "war on terror" by promoting US/NATO-sponsored false flag attacks to be blamed on "Muslim terrorists".

 

An example

Page name	Description
Milner Group/Society of the Elect	The subset of the Milner Group which managed the UK deep state around a century ago

 

Related Quotations

Page	Quote	Author	Date
BBC	“The BBC began in 1922, just before the corporate press began in America. Its founder was Lord John Reith, who believed that impartiality and objectivity were the essence of professionalism. In the same year the British establishment was under siege. The unions had called a general strike and the Tories were terrified that a revolution was on the way. The new BBC came to their rescue. In high secrecy, Lord Reith wrote anti-union speeches for the Tory Prime Minister Stanley Baldwin and broadcast them to the nation, while refusing to allow the labor leaders to put their side until the strike was over. So, a pattern was set. Impartiality was a principle certainly: a principle to be suspended whenever the establishment was under threat. And that principle has been upheld ever since.”	John Pilger	16 June 2007
Tim Fortescue	“For anyone with any sense, who was in trouble, would come to the whips and tell them the truth, and say now, I’m in a jam, can you help? It might be debt, it might be… a scandal involving small boys, or any kind of scandal in which, erm er, a member seemed likely to be mixed up in, they’d come and ask if we could help and if we could, we did. And we would do everything we can because we would store up brownie points… and if I mean, that sounds a pretty, pretty nasty reason, but it’s one of the reasons because if we could get a chap out of trouble then, he will do as we ask forever more.”	Tim Fortescue	1995
Andrew Marr	“A final lesson is that Westminster and the state are two very different things. The state includes the NHS, national science labs, networks of experts […] I now feel we should spend less time on the distracting national puppet show and more time thinking about what I might delicately call the deeper sources of authority.”	Andrew Marr	14 August 2021
Craig Murray	“It is to me quite incredible that the UK is still at the mercy of the whims and foibles of degenerates from not only the same class, but from within the same tiny social institutions which still confer a hereditary ability to govern a state of 60 million people now, in 2020. It makes a mockery of the UK’s claim to be a functional social polity and it makes a mockery of the very notion that “democracy” has any real existence in British society.”	Craig Murray	14 February 2020
UK	“The UK's communications watchdog Ofcom has overturned its ban on the use of GSM gateways (COMUGs) for overseas phone calls – leaving one of the longest prosecutions in modern English legal history hanging in the balance. The decision comes after a controversial public consultation exercise held earlier this year, in which The Register caught the Home Office's secret spy powers unit trying to anonymously lobby the regulator and keep the ban.”	Gareth Corfield	10 July 2017
Elizabeth Windsor	“There are powers at work in this country about which we have no knowledge”	Elizabeth Windsor	2002

 

Events Planned

Event	Start	End	Location(s)	Description
Australia/1975 coup d'état	15 October 1975	11 November 1975	Australia Canberra	A UK/US deep state-backed covert "constitutional coup" to remove Gough Whitlam whom they saw as a loose cannon.
Operation Mass Appeal	1990	2003	UK	An effort by MI6 to facilitate the UK's invasion of Iraq.

 

Related Documents

Title	Type	Publication date	Author(s)	Description
Document:Big Brother - One Man's Story	account	1 January 2010	Gerald James	The workings of secret, unaccountable government (The Deep State) of the UK. It functions, not only with callous disregard for the lives of those who get in its way but through Machiavellian manipulation of them - The sobering experiences of Gerald James.
Document:Hacks and Spooks	article	3 March 2006	Richard Keeble
Document:Privatization for Dummies – The Nuts & Bolts of The World's Biggest Scam	article	21 March 2019	Ronald Thomas West
Document:What is the point of tourists' checks and tests if migrants can just walk into Dover?	article	5 June 2021	Peter Hitchens	A blog post outlining the illogical policy of lockdown measures in the pandemic era, followed by sections about political correctness, and the Douma attack whistleblowers and Wikileaks.

Rating

11 February 2019 Robin  A very important topic
A still fairly untidy but useful introduction of how UK politics have been manipulated from behind the scenes and what the group is currently up to.

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