Talk:Wagner Group

Hit squad

This is to update from recent discussions and edits/removal (also on other pages) / part of it was also written on the Far West talk page just before this here [1]. So I don't see that Wagner is a hit squad .. with Blackwater it was reported that the CIA hired them as part of their "Assassination programme", but we kept with just PMC until now. Hit squad is (so I understand) a group that has just this focus, assassinations. So PMC is better suited to describe these companies .. and then mention the details like with Blackwater having been used for assassinations. When this comes up with Wagner same. With some of the edits I also removed the words "clandestine" "black ops" with respect to Wagner [2] .. personally not sure how well they can be used for clandestine black ops stuff given recent exposure, VICE and everything else. The Russians have historically sorted their special forces closely to their intelligence agencies (like the GRU) .. while in America the CIA had to (for the longest time) order that from the military .. and there, the real clandestine black ops stuff happens. As it is, the comparison of Wagner with Far West seems to not hold water (as explained there on the talk page). Jun wrote in recent discussion: "I never said Wagner was a hit squad to far west? Please show me where I said that." - No you did not, apology. I mixed different things, that were there, up .. but now here and on the Far West talk page it is clarified a bit.
-- Sunvalley (talk) 20:44, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

Thx for the clarifications. I do need to mention that "not sure how well they can be used for clandestine black ops stuff given recent exposure", should not be applied so black and white here as we try to document what happened in the past. So usually we can just change that to "it used to operate clandestine" and perhaps a "FA redirect" etc etc.

It seems, Wagner is painted in western media as hit/death squad to simplify their work.[3][4]. So, I'll place that as "ON_narrative", to indicate that's the corporate media standpoint. That seems fair. Jun (talk) 00:37, 8 September 2023 (UTC)

When it is like this, then yes .. ON is good .. but the CCM also terms them "death squad" and "war criminals" (the later being probably the most prominent one of all) should that be put there as well? -- Sunvalley (talk) 14:14, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

Yes. I was busy with 9-11 stuff, so good reminder by you. Problem is, we need to adjust the SMWQ for groups to include multiple "ON_constitutes", as we prob never thought the site would grow to pay attention to these details to add more ON-constitutes. So, for now, only persons can have more ON-constitutes than 1 for now. If wanted, we can add a constitute to the WS one or to interest if there is serious suspicion, but it's not required. Jun (talk) 22:31, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

"Grey Zone" Telegram channel

Info: The current "Death" section (for Prigozhin) refers to ccm articles that cite a "Wagner-aligned" Telegram channel, "Grey Zone". I will note that Jacob Dreizin, possibly the most informed English language commentator on the war, has written that: "I’ve previously identified “Grey Zone” Telegram channel (576,000 followers but PERMANENTLY, TOTALLY IGNORED by all Russian patriotic channels and commentators since early-mid 2022) as a leading pseudo-Russian, Ukrainian Psychological Operations Command front entity." -- Sunvalley (talk) 23:19, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

I agree, on Grey Zone being cited everywhere being shady, that's why I added two more sources (apart from the fact he can be still alive). But how did he expose them? I can only find him saying that, not how. Anyway, Wikispooks has a post all as long as you have refs policy, so feel free to add that Gray Zone is accused of being a Ukrainian Psyop. Jun (talk) 02:05, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

Is just as info, amounts not to much right now. Dreizin also has 3-10 minute mp3 audio files uploaded in the articles + Rumble/Youtube videos + occasional interview. He might have mentioned it in passing, but am not sure either. While we are at it, Grey Zone is said to have uploaded a video (others than ccm say this as well but no archive that I am aware of) with the execution of a Russian convict who fought with Wagner then defected to Ukraine but was sent back. In the video he get's murdered with a hammer. Then Wagner sends a hammer to the European Union. Prigozhin at one point commented that the execution of this traitor was a good thing .. this tends to indicate a connection to Wagner but nothing showed on their channel at the time (I looked, maybe they deleted shortly after publication) so still not sure what is what with this channel. -- Sunvalley (talk) 22:05, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

Another bit: George Eliason wrote Apr 12, 2023: "UA staged the viral sledge hammer vid to accuse RF of crimes". -- Sunvalley (talk) 22:41, 18 September 2023 (UTC)