Difference between revisions of "Template talk:Person"

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(Robin, could you add influencewatch to "groups"?)
 
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==#Invoke ?==
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<small>[[Template talk:Person/archive 1|Page archive 1]]</small>
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I think this means we need Scribunto installed for the infobox template to work... [[User:Robin|Robin]] ([[User talk:Robin|talk]]) 17:38, 22 December 2013 (GMT)
 
  
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:It does. I spent ages trying to get the necessary server dependencies up to the required releases. I guess I'll have another go as and when since there have been lots of OS component u/grades since - but haven't the inclination right now. Same applies to removing all those problem properties. I need to psych myself up for jobs like that first --[[User:Peter|Peter P]] ([[User talk:Peter|talk]]) 17:55, 22 December 2013 (GMT)
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==2019==
  
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::I've had another look at Scribunto. I'm not confident about getting it working any time soon. I think we would be better developing all new templates with SMW and foregoing the WP compatibility on infoboxes. They are generally vastly over complex for WS purposes anyway IMO. I'm happy to leave pages with the Scributo required 'Cite' templates as they are. If a Scribunto miracle happens they will just start working. Otherwise I don't think its much of a loss as is. I'll try to contribute a bit on the 'person' template if you're happy with this because there are lots of pages where it is needed. I'm also warming to the idea of separate namespaces because I feel that trying to maintain extensive WP compatibility whilst majoring on SMW is so much wasted effort --[[User:Peter|Peter P]] ([[User talk:Peter|talk]]) 16:39, 6 January 2014 (GMT)
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Jun 2019 - I just removed a call to [[Template:SMWDefaultMarkup]], since this is called anyway from [[Template:SMWDocs]]. -- [[User:Robin|Robin]] ([[User talk:Robin|talk]]) 12:52, 29 June 2019 (UTC)
  
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:::I've just spent another 3 hours on the Scribunto issue to no avail. It requires pcre >= 8.1. I cannot find a single EPEL repo with a version higher than 7.8 (which is what we currently have). I do have an outstanding help request on the Centos forums but will not hold my breath on a successful answer from there. The problem with installing it from elsewhere is that it has to be compiled into php and, since php is core OS stuff and so central to the functioning of everything, I am not going to attempt a non-standard hack at it. I did so with a few things on the old server and it caused no end of troubles which were never fully resolved. Upshot? We need to forget about being able to run any and all Wikipedia templates simply by importing them. There are quite a few existing pages that use 'cite' and we'll just have to live with that; but this template and other potential site dependent ones need to be developed without Lua or Scribunto - for now anyway --[[User:Peter|Peter P]] ([[User talk:Peter|talk]]) 14:45, 24 January 2014 (GMT)
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==Maintaining Wikipedia compatibility==
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The wikipedia Infobox templates use '[[Scribunto]]' to both parse and display template parameters. They are stuctured heirarchically with <code>Template:Infobox</code> using the parameters passed to it by <code>Template:Infobox person</code>. The call to <code>Template:Infobox</code> is the first item in the calling template. <code>Infobox</code> passes the <code>Infobox person</code>subsidiary template parameters to the ''Scribunto'' <code>Module:Infobox</code> as a series of numbered pairs. The allowable parameters are copy/pasteable from the <code>Infobox xxxx/doc</code>.
  
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::::I don't even know what EPEL stands for, am not up to speed at all on this. Are [http://rpm.pbone.net/index.php3?stat=3&search=pcre&srodzaj=3 RPM packages] any use? [[User:Robin|Robin]] ([[User talk:Robin|talk]]) 16:06, 24 January 2014 (GMT)
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There are 72 parameter pairs available in the current iteration of the Template and module - ie more than Wikispooks is ever likely to wish to use. Scribunto identifies them by number so any new parameter names can probably replace existing pairs that are unlikely ever to be used by WS.
  
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:::::Extra Packages for Enterprise Linux. Installing from an RPM does not integrate the package into php. That requires a separate compile which makes the OS non-standard and risks breaking all sorts of other things. It's certainly possible but the time investment required to keep on top of those sort of issues just isn't worth the candle - in my experience of the previous server anyway. Once bitten, twice shy as they say. --[[User:Peter|Peter P]] ([[User talk:Peter|talk]]) 17:44, 24 January 2014 (GMT)
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The templates seem to be working fine with the basic information currently being passed by the few pages that have been imported from Wikipedia and the Infobox specs left unchanged. It seems therefore that the simplest way forward will be to construct new templates for inclusion in the <code>Infobox xxxx</code> templates and containing just the required SMW property assignments. minor adjustments to the existing parameter names will also be required (Noteably "known for" to replace "description" for persons - also probably birth and death date names and locations). The property assignments in the existing <code>Template:Person</code>, with some parameter name adjustments can be used as the <code>Infobox Person</code> include.  
  
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::::::I can understand why you don't want to look into compiling the PHP. Best avoided. What about an RPM for PHP which supports PCRE >=8.1? Do you think [http://pkgs.org/centos-6/webtatic-i386/php55w-common-5.5.7-1.w6.i386.rpm.html this] might be worth a look? It doesn't mention the PCRE version, but the PHP version is a good sign and I think it's from December 2013. You know more about this than me, I just changed the version number and googled on it:) ([[User talk:Robin|talk]]) 25 January 2014 (GMT)
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Comments, observations etc. please --[[User:Peter|Peter P]] ([[User talk:Peter|talk]]) 13:43, 18 February 2014 (GMT)
  
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:::::::Another couple of hours and BINGO!!! - seems to be working OK. I could spend the rest of my life tinkering with bloody technical issues. Anyway, we still have pcre 7.8 but a re-import of the WP infobox template and dependencies plus latest Scribunto extension code from the dev branch of GIT and a tweek to the Lua engine binaries path and web-server write permission and we seem to have a working set of templates. This needs watching though. It's horrendously complex and my guess is all too easily broken. --[[User:Peter|Peter P]] ([[User talk:Peter|talk]]) 07:55, 25 January 2014 (GMT)
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:I like the idea of maintaining compatability, but indeed quite a lot of the 72 pairs are not currently relevant to Wikispooks and unlikely ever to be so. Meaning they can be replaced without loss, freeing up some slots for some custom Wikispooks parameters, such as WP page. [[User:Robin|Robin]] ([[User talk:Robin|talk]]) 13:53, 18 February 2014 (GMT)
  
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::::::::Also , thanks for that repo link. It's Yum-enabled so should be a doddle to use. I'll do a bit of research before adding it to the regular server repo list though. It's funny how easy it is to miss the obvious in matters like this. Also, I'll warn well before attempting a php upgrade - for obvious reasons; probably leave it for a week or so to see if Scribunto gives any problems first --[[User:Peter|Peter P]] ([[User talk:Peter|talk]]) 08:08, 25 January 2014 (GMT)
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::Currently this template doesn't use the Infobox templates or Scribunto modules at all so the display issues are confined to the code in this template only. Let's keep it in use until I've debugged the needed changes to the WP template - I've only just figured out exactly how they work but I'm confident that we will be able to use them with minimal changes or issues. I'll use the 'Know issues' section below as it progresses  --[[User:Peter|Peter P]] ([[User talk:Peter|talk]]) 15:13, 18 February 2014 (GMT)
  
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:::::::::''Good work on the PCRE/Scribunto support, Peter!'' I've had a go with [[User:UpdateBot]] and the date issue is now solved. [[User:Robin|Robin]] ([[User talk:Robin|talk]]) 09:15, 25 January 2014 (GMT)
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== Known issues ==
  
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== Template development ==
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''This list is incomplete. Please add to it:''
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# <s>Sort Order - This is not correct for, e.g. [[H. John Heinz III]], which sorts under "iii", instead of of "Heinz - also for 'Jr' and 'Sr'"</s>
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# Poorly displayed parameters
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## Wikipedia
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# Authority control is not implemented and needs work. The WP-compatible approach would be to use a separate template for this, as this is what Wikipedia does. Another would be to have a bunch of separate parameters for this for each separate authority. The purpose of authority control is to facilitate bots, whether updating or using this dataset, might not be that relevant as yet.
  
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This template needs lots of development work and I'm inclined to scrap ideas of maintaining compatibility with Wikipedia imports at the same time as overlaying Wikispooks-specific requirements because the WP offering is already horrendously complex. Ideas welcome, otherwise I may pitch in with a machete and have a damn good clear-out before starting on a form. --[[User:Peter|Peter P]] ([[User talk:Peter|talk]]) 07:32, 27 January 2014 (GMT)
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==Suggested Improvements ==
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# It would be good to display SMW-derived information, such as
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## <s>'''Founded:''' (from [[Property:Has founder|Has founder]]) e.g. [[Robin Ramsay]], [[Lobster Magazine]]</s>
  
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:I say, compatibility is a ''big'' bonus. It would allow, for example, the auto-import of a list of people via a script. This could save a lot of ^C^V'ing. This is not to suggest that the Wikispooks template should be identical. That's got a lot of fluff such as "honours" (& probably "weeks at #1", I can't remember)... So I suggest compatibility meaning we accept imports wholesale from WP, then just ignore some the irrelevant parameters, while expanding on use of others (e.g. assigning semantic properties by them). Once we get it set up, it should make for easy authoring/importing. [[User:Robin|Robin]] ([[User talk:Robin|talk]]) 12:43, 27 January 2014 (GMT)
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==Suggested Improvement ==
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This one could need a |partners= , similar to |spouses= , since not everybody is married.
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[[User:Terje|Terje]] ([[User talk:Terje|talk]]) 06:57, 6 July 2022 (UTC)---
  
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::OK Robin. That's sound logic, but the template display needs priority attention. I started to tackle it myself, then baulked at the complexity. If you take it up I'll follow the work closely to better familiarise myself with the whole new templating structure. I'm also anxious to start work on ''Person'' and ''Event'' forms but will hold fire until I see more progress on this. I'm also persuaded that Forms linked to namespaces IS the way to go after all. Template obviously continue to cross namespaces (ie <code>Template:DocType</code> can continue to be used on both Documents and non-image files). I've done a lot of new pages and editing of existing ones with the newly tabbed <code>Form:Document</code> and it really does make life so much easier - a doddle in fact --[[User:Peter|Peter P]] ([[User talk:Peter|talk]]) 13:15, 27 January 2014 (GMT)
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==2022 Siblings==
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I've been using "siblings" a quite a few times over the years, without noticing that it does not exist! Should it be added, or should I instead just merge it with "relatives"?
  
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== Display problem ==
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Also, "partners" does not show. "partner" singlular will show, but won't hyperlink to the person.
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[[User:Terje|Terje]] ([[User talk:Terje|talk]]) 03:49, 1 August 2022 (UTC)---
  
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I've spent ages on this to little avail. The date was a superfluous pipe character in the template + the template spec on the test page (Craig Murray) said "|Born" instead of "|Birth date". The 'constitutes' failure on the Craig Murray page I can't find. Thought is was capitalisation (DocProc uses capitals, this doesn't) but no. I think it is the interplay between ArrayMapProperty and the arraymap statements in this template but I've had enough for now. Not my most productive area - though it does at least give me a better understanding of how things work.
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==Influencewatch==
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Robin,
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Could you add the possibility of having a link to https://www.influencewatch.org |influencewatch= for people?
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[[User:Terje|Terje]] ([[User talk:Terje|talk]]) 00:01, 11 October 2022 (UTC)
  
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Also, I'm really nervous about Scribunto. I had to switch it off to complete the SMW_refreshData script because it kept crashing with Lua Engine script errors. There were lots of consecutive ones and my best estimate is that 150 records are involved. It then completed OK with Scribunto disabled, and with just 14 records not rebuilt because the script hung at their respective record ID numbers and I had to keep restarting it at at incrementally higher numbers. I'd rather disable Scribunto until I find out what exactly is causing it - I have posted queries on a couple of related boards. Are you OK with that? --[[User:Peter|Peter P]] ([[User talk:Peter|talk]]) 14:20, 11 February 2014 (GMT)
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:There are a few organizations with links to it as well, like [[Clinton Global Initiative]].
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[[User:Terje|Terje]] ([[User talk:Terje|talk]]) 02:17, 13 January 2023 (UTC)
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:Sure. My strongest feelings about Scribunto are around keeping compatibility with as much of WP on the road as possible. I agree that 100% is not realistic or even desirable, but there are a lot of bits that rely on Scribunto (e.g. "cite"). Temporary outages don't compromise this at all. There's plenty of other stuff to do than Scribunto dependent stuff. [[User:Robin|Robin]] ([[User talk:Robin|talk]]) 15:49, 11 February 2014 (GMT)
 
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::OK, I'll turn it off for now. Also - a bit of progress made on displaying the infobox data (used Craig Murray existing template infor to test) - presentation/formatting improvements etc to follow --[[User:Peter|Peter P]] ([[User talk:Peter|talk]]) 16:15, 11 February 2014 (GMT)
 

Latest revision as of 02:18, 13 January 2023

Page archive 1

2019

Jun 2019 - I just removed a call to Template:SMWDefaultMarkup, since this is called anyway from Template:SMWDocs. -- Robin (talk) 12:52, 29 June 2019 (UTC)

Maintaining Wikipedia compatibility

The wikipedia Infobox templates use 'Scribunto' to both parse and display template parameters. They are stuctured heirarchically with Template:Infobox using the parameters passed to it by Template:Infobox person. The call to Template:Infobox is the first item in the calling template. Infobox passes the Infobox personsubsidiary template parameters to the Scribunto Module:Infobox as a series of numbered pairs. The allowable parameters are copy/pasteable from the Infobox xxxx/doc.

There are 72 parameter pairs available in the current iteration of the Template and module - ie more than Wikispooks is ever likely to wish to use. Scribunto identifies them by number so any new parameter names can probably replace existing pairs that are unlikely ever to be used by WS.

The templates seem to be working fine with the basic information currently being passed by the few pages that have been imported from Wikipedia and the Infobox specs left unchanged. It seems therefore that the simplest way forward will be to construct new templates for inclusion in the Infobox xxxx templates and containing just the required SMW property assignments. minor adjustments to the existing parameter names will also be required (Noteably "known for" to replace "description" for persons - also probably birth and death date names and locations). The property assignments in the existing Template:Person, with some parameter name adjustments can be used as the Infobox Person include.

Comments, observations etc. please --Peter P (talk) 13:43, 18 February 2014 (GMT)

I like the idea of maintaining compatability, but indeed quite a lot of the 72 pairs are not currently relevant to Wikispooks and unlikely ever to be so. Meaning they can be replaced without loss, freeing up some slots for some custom Wikispooks parameters, such as WP page. Robin (talk) 13:53, 18 February 2014 (GMT)
Currently this template doesn't use the Infobox templates or Scribunto modules at all so the display issues are confined to the code in this template only. Let's keep it in use until I've debugged the needed changes to the WP template - I've only just figured out exactly how they work but I'm confident that we will be able to use them with minimal changes or issues. I'll use the 'Know issues' section below as it progresses --Peter P (talk) 15:13, 18 February 2014 (GMT)

Known issues

This list is incomplete. Please add to it:

  1. Sort Order - This is not correct for, e.g. H. John Heinz III, which sorts under "iii", instead of of "Heinz - also for 'Jr' and 'Sr'"
  2. Poorly displayed parameters
    1. Wikipedia
  3. Authority control is not implemented and needs work. The WP-compatible approach would be to use a separate template for this, as this is what Wikipedia does. Another would be to have a bunch of separate parameters for this for each separate authority. The purpose of authority control is to facilitate bots, whether updating or using this dataset, might not be that relevant as yet.

Suggested Improvements

  1. It would be good to display SMW-derived information, such as
    1. Founded: (from Has founder) e.g. Robin Ramsay, Lobster Magazine

Suggested Improvement

This one could need a |partners= , similar to |spouses= , since not everybody is married. Terje (talk) 06:57, 6 July 2022 (UTC)---

2022 Siblings

I've been using "siblings" a quite a few times over the years, without noticing that it does not exist! Should it be added, or should I instead just merge it with "relatives"?

Also, "partners" does not show. "partner" singlular will show, but won't hyperlink to the person. Terje (talk) 03:49, 1 August 2022 (UTC)---

Influencewatch

Robin, Could you add the possibility of having a link to https://www.influencewatch.org |influencewatch= for people? Terje (talk) 00:01, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

There are a few organizations with links to it as well, like Clinton Global Initiative.

Terje (talk) 02:17, 13 January 2023 (UTC)

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