Talk:Malaysia Airlines Flight 17

Initial article observations

This is a model Deep event and as such deserves deep and thoughtful attention. Thanks to Patrick for starting it but Lockerbie parallels, whilst valid, are a VERY minor part of an extremely complex event and one which clearly has near-unprecedented geo-political ramifications. I have collected a vast amount of data on it and have studied its development to date in more depth than anything else in years. I intend to start collating the data and adding to/editing the article as and when I get the time. In the meantime don't be put off adding to it but please make sure the non-western MSM commentary is given due weight. It is also worth remarking on the near unanimous, absurd rush to judgement and demonisation of Russia by the Western commercially-controlled media and its politicos. Their story was Ready to go and it did so with near unprecedented fury and unanimity - which really ought to tell us something.

Also, the reference I deleted alleged uncertainty about Russia's intentions and that the 'separatists' were accused of impeding site investigation. Those are allegations, fairly typical of the western commercially-controlled media when reporting deep events. Part and parcel of the way in which the developing Official Narrative is moulded. Their point of view and spurious allegations get quite enough attention without Wikispooks giving them more exposure, other than to point out their flagrant bias. --Peter P (talk) 17:45, 24 July 2014 (IST)

Events in Gaza in the past few days seem to have overshadowed MH17. However, some doughty campaigners such as Peter Lavelle of Russia Today are intent on keeping MH17 to the forefront:

On Wednesday 23 July 2014, Russia Today's Peter Lavelle was interviewed by CNN's Chris Cuomo. This is what Peter had to say after the interview: "Some thoughts on the CNN interview: First, I had never heard of Chris Cuomo before. I simply don’t watch CNN. Second, of course I expected this was a setup. CNN despises RT. Why would CNN give a RT host airtime unless they were looking for a slam-dunk interview knocking me out? Third, I also fully expected to encounter a charlatan journalist. Cuomo certainly presented himself as person with emotions (drama queen), but also unable to marshal basic facts. Lastly, it is pity it was so short, I was just getting warmed up."

This is CNN's edited version of the Cuomo/Lavelle interview that was risibly headlined: "Russian TV host blames Ukraine for MH17".--Patrick Haseldine (talk) 21:59, 25 July 2014 (IST)

Thanks Patrick. I believe I have not missed much of significance in this matter from the outset. I'm just very tardy about organsing, authoring and posting what I know - mainly for family/time-constraint reasons. I am very familiar with Peter Lavelle and have all his crosstalk shows + that CNN attempted hatchet-job archived. For info, here are 5 sites which are must-reads to be sure of staying on top of news and events which the Commercially-controlled media suppresses:

• Vineyard of the Saker - English. Run by a Russian ex-pat living in Florida - a site mirror/backup is hosted in the Wikispooks VPS.
• No Limit to our anger - English. Run by Glab Bazov, a Russian ex-pa living in Canada
• Colonel Cassad - Russian with English translations that tend to run 24 hours behind. Run by a Sevastopol-based group.
• Deep politics Forum - English. Various threads. I provide the tech-support for the site and sometimes chip in. --Peter P (talk) 07:07, 26 July 2014 (IST)

Four fascinating sites Peter. Here's a fifth that I came across today:

• 21st Century Wire "MH17 Verdict: Real Evidence Points to US-Kiev Cover-up of Failed False Flag".--Patrick Haseldine (talk) 17:09, 27 July 2014 (IST)

Missing MH

Wikipedia's article "Malaysia Airlines Flight 17" notes that "MH is the IATA designator and MAS is the ICAO designator. The flight is also marketed as KLM Flight 4103 (KL4103) through a codeshare agreement." However, the flight is almost universally described in the media as "Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17", also in the text of UNSCR 2166 (2014). When importing from WP, I don't think we should slavishly follow their titling (cf. BRICS Development Bank/New Development Bank).--Patrick Haseldine (talk) 14:57, 25 July 2014 (IST)

I agree. We should avoid slavishly following ANY and ALL WP (and MSM) titling and other phraseology conventions. The purpose of the Glossary is partly to explain Wikispooks departures from MSM conventions. The watch-word should be clarity, that's all; with links to WP pages where appropriate - especially to highlight their bias. So, can't see a compelling reason to have re-titled the page either. However, now its done, it would be make-work to move it and related talk page back again. It's important to keep the redirects though because they are likely to be used in Google searches. Robin's opinion? --Peter P (talk) 07:06, 26 July 2014 (IST)

Agreed - no slavish following of commercially-controlled media (and I say, not even in their self-styling as "mainstream" - I consider extreme a more fitting soubriquet:). I changed this title for consistency - to match the other flights. What will be important is that there is a redirect at least that matches WP (important pending a reorganisation of how WP+ works). I don't see that it matters much whether the title has "MH" in it or not. Robin (talk) 13:25, 26 July 2014 (IST)

Sub-Pages

Can't figure out why sub-pages template is not working on this page. It was added over 24 hours ago so I doubt it is a Jobs queue issue.

I'm also putting a link to the timeline sub page on the Main page temporarily because it does not show in any of the current Main Page boxes and I expect to have some new contributors keen to find it. --Peter P (talk) 12:14, 28 July 2014 (IST)

I clarified the description of Template:SubPages - in order to show up, subPages have to use an object template. This is not a bug, since all pages should have an object template. We may wish to have a dedicated 'timeline' object. It would also not be hard to make it appear, e.g. at the top of the event box - somewhere standardised would be good, so people know where to look. What would be good behaviour for linking in timelines into main pages, I wonder? Robin (talk) 01:50, 8 August 2014 (IST)

A dedicated timeline object is probably the way to go. The problem is that, as currently implemented, each timeline has its own template (ie not a single template for all timelines), with event selection done by category. Also, the necessarily strange names for timeline event pages mean that they would be better in a dedicated namespace - along with their timeline pages. The problem with that is that the current implementation of the simile timeline includes the namespace in the event name (ie page name) on the actual timeline and there are only about 30 characters available to construct a sensible name that uniquely identifies the event. All of this has greatly inhibited my wish to put up new timelines because I'm forever bogged down in these sorts of techie work-arounds. There seems to be no current development of this or the Chap Timeline at present either. --Peter P (talk) 07:42, 8 August 2014 (IST)