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| − | [[Talk:2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine/Old|archived discussion are here]] | + | [[Talk:2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine/Old|Archived discussion are here]] |
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| | + | [[user:Jun|Jun]], the section 'Vanishing people', what exactly do you want to say there? I hardly follow. And is a link to one (not small) Wikipedia article the citation for that? Please have a look. -- [[User:Sunvalley|Sunvalley]] ([[User talk:Sunvalley|talk]]) 00:08, 13 July 2023 (UTC) |
| | + | ::: I tried merging the "PMC" Underground bases and deportations claims a year ago, but WP changed it and split all those parts before I added all refs. I just kept the Deportations. The [[D.U.M.B]] (see; https://theconversation.com/going-underground-ukraines-subterranean-fighters-highlight-the-benefit-and-long-history-of-tunnels-in-warfare-181454, https://www.firstpost.com/explainers/russia-ukraine-war-underground-cities-bakhmut-soledar-salt-mines-wagner-group-11959712.html & https://defence-blog.com/ukraine-shows-off-underground-base-for-himars/) and [[PMCs]]/[[Sleeper cell]]/miliatry abduction (added now)/hitmen network ([[Academi]], [[Wagner]] now have their own pages. A redirect and sub-header in the future will be enough for them. Good catch. [[User:Jun|Jun]] ([[User talk:Jun|talk]]) 19:07, 13 July 2023 (UTC) |
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| − | ==Who Promised What to Whom on NATO Expansion?== | + | == Russian sources - == |
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| − | As for Gorbi's reasoning, I don't know and I'm not that sure. It appears he was "led to believe" by U.S. Secretary of State James Baker. Kohl and Bush. They appeared to have tried to make him believe if Germany joins NATO, NATO would stay there and ''not have to'' move east. They appear to compare it to be better than Germany just being independent again until it starts some (....) again. Gorbi wanted E-Germany to become a sort of Moldova. They say Gorbi said yes as he was surprised with the speed of Germany's calls for unification. I tend to think he was pressured to believe it, but thought it helped him for the coming Soviet coup and there were to many deep state faction trying to position themselves for the August coup. https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-book/russia-programs/2017-12-12/nato-expansion-what-gorbachev-heard-western-leaders-early#_edn1
| + | I can't find anything for this, and it's a month, and we've almost reached the 50k limit, so for now, I've removed the following [[user:Sunvalley]]. |
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| − | I think a missing piece here is what and who Putin did meet in '91 after leaving the KGB - according to him was Gorbi was becoming quite senile - before being exposed for fraud by Marina Salye should help to solve this.
| + | The attempt at Kiev was thought of as a diversion by [[Scott Ritter]], in order to force Ukraine to split focus and power to some extent away from the main battle line.<ref>the explanation starts about 10:15 into the video [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SN7o-ThhFfY The first casualty of War is Truth (Live w/Scott Ritter)], The Duran YT channel, Apr 4, 2022</ref> A Russian military commander later clarified that they thought the mood in the population would swing in their favor, but nothing of the sort did happen even remotely, so they adjusted strategy accordingly.<ref>Vladimir Shamanov - retired Colonel General of the Russian Armed Forces, from May 2009 to October 2016 Commander-in-Chief of the Russian Airborne Troops, https://de.rt.com/europa/139630-luftlandetruppen-chef-ad-zum-verlauf-militaeroperation/ - automated translation: "In the interview, the general also acknowledged mistakes made by the military leadership. At the beginning of the operation, he said, the Russian army expected to be "greeted with flowers" in Ukraine. This "component" had already been overcome."</ref> [[User:Jun|Jun]] ([[User talk:Jun|talk]]) 12:27, 8 August 2023 (UTC) |
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| − | :::That there were assurances in those negotiations, that NATO would <u>not</u> move eastwards, is not the question anymore, there were.<ref>https://www.heise.de/tp/features/Keinen-Inch-weiter-nach-Osten-Was-den-Russen-zur-Wiedervereinigung-ueber-die-Nato-versprochen-wurde-3918651.html?seite=all</ref><ref>https://www.heise.de/tp/features/Nato-Osterweiterung-Das-ist-eine-brillante-Idee-Ein-Geniestreich-4009027.html?seite=all</ref><ref>https://www.heise.de/tp/features/Osterweiterung-Fehler-von-historischem-Ausmass-4002177.html?seite=all</ref><ref>https://www.heise.de/tp/features/Osterweiterung-Wie-die-Nato-wortbruechig-wurde-6347016.html</ref><ref>https://odysee.com/@RTDE:e/Fasbender-im-Gespr%C3%A4ch-mit-Jochen-Scholz-Vorerst-keine-Aussicht-auf-Wiederann%C3%A4herung:d</ref><ref>https://www.spiegel.de/ausland/nato-osterweiterung-aktenfund-stuetzt-russische-version-a-1613d467-bd72-4f02-8e16-2cd6d3285295</ref> "In return for German unification, the west promises not to let nato advance further eastward" (ARD).<ref>https://odysee.com/@R.A.I.N.:0/Genscher---'Waren-uns-einig-dass-nicht-die-Absicht-besteht-die-NATO-nach-Osten-auszudehnen':b</ref> I believe that assurances in meetings amongst statesmen had up to that point some sort binding effect, but the US then played stupid, turned around and said: "We're not expanding, they're asking to join" ... integrating the KGB networks into NATO as they went. Anyway, if someone has the answer why the Russians did not make this binding in writing, it would be much appreciated. -- [[User:Sunvalley|Sunvalley]] ([[User talk:Sunvalley|talk]]) 23:28, 3 March 2022 (UTC) | + | :updated with the missing links today -- [[User:Sunvalley|Sunvalley]] ([[User talk:Sunvalley|talk]]) 10:05, 3 September 2023 (UTC) |
| − | :::: Gorbi says<ref>https://www.dw.com/en/how-kohl-and-gorbachev-sealed-the-deal-on-german-reunification/a-5788998</ref> it was only about "new military structures created in the eastern part of the country" with no promises elsewhere, I still don't see it as the explicit promising of no expansion beyond de DDR. At best the beyond DDR part would be an informal guarantee imho. Which is suspicious and a quite weak ploy of Gorbi of its own, but plausible reading the declassified files. As to why, most witnesses suggest the combi of Gorbi preparing for the demise of Union & getting an informal financial injection to keep it still floating), as the USSR was paid $40-70 billion by the DDR as "price for reunification".<ref>German Reunification: A Multinational History edited by Frédéric Bozo, Andreas Rödder, Mary Elise Sarotte</ref> --[[User:Jun|Jun]] ([[User talk:Jun|talk]]) 00:32, 4 March 2022 (UTC)
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| − | ::::I found https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-book/russia-programs/2017-12-12/nato-expansion-what-gorbachev-heard-western-leaders-early. It says: "Who Promised What to Whom on NATO Expansion?” The panel included Mark Kramer: the “no-NATO-enlargement pledge” was a “myth”. And: "the U.S. was playing a double game in 1990, leading Gorbachev to believe NATO would be subsumed in a new European security structure" [[User:Urban|Urban]] ([[User talk:Urban|talk]]) 16:11, 4 March 2022 (UTC)
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| − | :::::I would wonder what the discussion actually is, given what is known today, and has been spoken (and been reported about at the time). But when one side has other interests than cooperation and/or keeping to agreements, then this discussion becomes more understandable. Gorbi said things to the effect (ca 2009) that the west has pulled a fast one on Russia (these are mainstream sources).<ref>https://www.diepresse.com/466745/russen-ueber-den-tisch-gezogen-gorbatschow-kritisert-nato</ref><ref>https://www.n-tv.de/politik/Gorbatschow-kritisiert-NATO-article65030.html</ref> There is [[media manipulation]] about what he said, standard falsification,<ref>https://www.welt.de/geschichte/article237082635/Streitfall-Nato-Erweiterung-Gorbatschow-bestreitet-energisch-betrogen-worden-zu-sein.html</ref> which in no small part (I guess) is helped along by historians with an agenda, like this whack <ref>https://www.welt.de/geschichte/article237082635/Streitfall-Nato-Erweiterung-Gorbatschow-bestreitet-energisch-betrogen-worden-zu-sein.html</ref> who in his exclusive interviews manages to get him (Gorbi) to say the things he want him to say. If you read the ''Welt'' article,<ref>https://www.welt.de/geschichte/article237082635/Streitfall-Nato-Erweiterung-Gorbatschow-bestreitet-energisch-betrogen-worden-zu-sethat in.html</ref> this guy, Ignaz Lozo, completely plays down what has been discussed generally, and what Gorbatschow has said just a few years ago .. Lozo also plays that down. Urban's link to nsarchive.gwu.edu practically explains it all (and highlights gravity of it) .. yes nothing in writing, but assurances which brings me back to the point of agreements amongst statesmen.
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| − | :::::-- [[User:Sunvalley|Sunvalley]] ([[User talk:Sunvalley|talk]]) 03:14, 7 April 2022 (UTC)
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| − | ===Role of international lending institutions===
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| − | At the time massive currency speculation let to a devaluation of the Rubel. Likely, Gorbi felt he needs cold hard cash (from the West). [[User:Urban|Urban]] ([[User talk:Urban|talk]]) 04:00, 4 March 2022 (UTC)
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| − | ...and I got a feeling that Putin is facing this same urge towards ''cold hard cash'' very soon. The role of banks in conflict is "overlooked" in history, but more visible in this case, where weapons deals are discussed publicly. [[User:Urban|Urban]] ([[User talk:Urban|talk]]) 07:44, 8 March 2022 (UTC)
| + | ==50k== |
| − | | + | Per [[Style guide]], will everyone please try to keep the article under 50k bytes? When new content has to be added, please be reminded to move less relevant content to other pages. We still have 30% of stubs. Even 9-11, Covid or all US elections pages combined have less bytes. |
| − | ==50K== | + | So, when over 50k bytes, just ''try'' to move some content and leave a forwarded redirect: {{FA|Example}} |
| − | What you have thrown out recently, will that be gone or are you getting those things to sub pages in the near future? Otherwise I would probably do that, at least partially. - [[user:jun|Jun]]? -- [[User:Sunvalley|Sunvalley]] ([[User talk:Sunvalley|talk]]) 17:42, 3 October 2022 (UTC)
| + | There is no mass message extension yet to edit, so please be reminded that in the future content may be moved with reasoning placed here, as in the past. Like I did with 3 sub-pages, more sub-pages are welcome, changing the names of the current one as well. |
| − | | + | [[User:Jun|Jun]] ([[User talk:Jun|talk]]) 04:15, 22 August 2023 (UTC) |
| − | ===Questionable parts===
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| − | https://wikispooks.com/w/index.php?title=2022_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine&type=revision&diff=252577&oldid=252160
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| − | The [[freedom convoy]] was inspiring other movements worldwide and and non-{{ccm}} such as [[Joe Rogan]] were reaching an audience of millions with a nuanced explanation of [[COVID-19/Purposes]]</ref> [[Justin Trudeau]] had frozen the bank accounts of the [[Canadian truckers]] who were protesting against government overreach, and direct action was spreading globally For this reason a change of topic was opportune. - This needs a source pointing out what was written, as the freedom convoy wasn't the main focus in the media in early February. That Joe Rogan part was decent, but had no episode or example being given.
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| − | It is interesting that [[Klaus Schwab]] has named Putin as a [[WEF Young Global Leader]],<ref>https://brandnewtube.com/watch/klaus-schwab-in-2017-quot-merkel-putin-trudeau-were-wef-young-global-leaders-quot_3QqktPo4RDCfzof.html</ref> that the COVID project since 2019 was heavily staffed by members of the WEF (as well as [[Bilderberg/2021|Bilderberg]]), and that their influence in Russia is sizable when it comes to pandemic related matters (see [[Riley Waggaman]]s reporting from Russia).- Putin and his WEF link was already placed on the page.
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| − | * At the beginning of the war, western pundits claimed extraordinary losses for Russia and pushed many minor stories as major successes for Ukraine - by mid 2022 most realize that Russia has the upper hand - a former Russian general interviewed for [[RT]],<ref>https://de.rt.com/europa/140141-kein-quadratmeter-land-fur-kiewes-general-perspektiven-militaeroperation/</ref> based on his own analysis, says that most likely the whole of Ukraine will be claimed by Russia, since: "If even one square meter of land remains under the rule of the current Kiev regime, it will immediately be filled with weapons, and they will fire from there at Russia, at the Russians." - The thumb image that is suppose to show change in media optimism has no referral or explanation as to what the picture is, and there are numourous headers where it could've been placed instead of just as "new development". In the current news cycle, every day is new development. We get complaints on Reddit that there is no new content after one day. You'll never satisfy them, So I'd say, improve the quality of the page instead of adding more to the page.
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| − | * An exchange that envisaged NATO countries giving weapons systems to Ukraine, receiving compensation from stock of other NATO countries, has left some (like Bulgaria and Slovakia) without airplanes to police their own airspace.{{cn}} The chancellery of [[Scholz]] appears to not sign required documents for the direct delivery of promised equipment <ref>https://www.tagesspiegel.de/politik/blockiert-scholz-panzer-fuer-die-ukraine-der-kanzler-und-die-informelle-nato-absprache/28377748.html</ref> and the exchange delivery appears not to be working as promised as well.<ref>https://www.t-online.de/nachrichten/ausland/id_92233454/polen-wartet-noch-immer-auf-deutsche-panzer-versprechen-nicht-umgesetzt-.html</ref><ref>https://www.polskieradio.pl/400/7986/Artykul/2979163,Wie-kann-Polen-nicht-gelieferte-Panzer-aus-Deutschland-ersetzen</ref> - this has a "cn", everything with "cn" was an easy target. This can come back easily.
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| − | * At the end of April 2022, [[Rheinmetall]] wanted to send 88 [[Leopard 1]] to Ukraine (along with other numbers for other weapons systems).<ref>https://www.n-tv.de/politik/Unterstuetzung-fuer-die-Ukraine-Rheinmetall-bietet-88-gebrauchte-Leopard-Panzer-an-article23289233.html</ref><ref>https://exxpress.at/rheinmetall-will-88-alte-leopard1-panzer-an-kiew-liefern/</ref><ref>https://www.fuldainfo.de/rheinmetall-will-88-leopard-panzer-an-ukraine-liefern/</ref> The use of the number 88 and it's connotation and symbology was noted by [[Florian Rötzer]].<ref>https://overton-magazin.de/krass-konkret/wladimir-sergijenko-die-russen-sehen-es-nicht-locker-wenn-man-mit-dem-hitlergruss-waffen-schickt/</ref><ref>https://overton-magazin.de/krass-konkret/wladimir-sergijenko-die-russen-sehen-es-nicht-locker-wenn-man-mit-dem-hitlergruss-waffen-schickt/</ref> The Chief Operating Officer for Rheinmetall get's lost for four days in mid May 2022.<ref>https://de.euronews.com/2022/05/20/mysterioses-verschwinden-wegen-panzern-fur-die-ukraine-rheinmetall-manager-4-tage-weg</ref><ref>https://www.n-tv.de/wirtschaft/Rheinmetall-Manager-tagelang-verschwunden-article23345952.html</ref> While German press writes mostly clueless articles about the matter, a Swiss publication notes: "Kutz (Thorsten Kutz) may have been an appealing kidnapping target for Russian agents because of his insider knowledge."<ref>https://www.20min.ch/story/manager-von-ruestungsunternehmen-verschwindet-nach-panzer-deal-spurlos-248865958495</ref> (in another incident, possibly unrelated, the drinks at a social gathering of the [[SPD]] are spiked in July 2022)<ref>https://www.rte.ie/news/2022/0709/1309337-sdp-investigation/</ref><ref>https://deutsche-wirtschafts-nachrichten.de/520830/Mehrere-Frauen-auf-SPD-Sommerparty-mit-KO-Tropfen-betaeubt</ref> - this is placed back.
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| − | * The conflict in the [[Donbas]] region was lingering in a stalemate since 2014, but clearly preparations have been made over years on the Ukrainian side (with supply of training and equipment from the outside) to be able to escalate at some point - therefor a connection between the escalation of the war and the [[COVID-19/Purposes|Covid event]] can be argued. - This had no internal linage or referral.
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| − | What is currently stuffed in section 'NATO' is not sorted, I think best is a new section for military aid (which is also in 'Reactions' but should be it's own main section) could come together with PMC activity. -- [[User:Sunvalley|Sunvalley]] ([[User talk:Sunvalley|talk]]) 00:41, 15 October 2022 (UTC)
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| | + | ==Sex trafficking== |
| | + | From the current version of the article: |
| | + | Demand for Ukrainian women by VIPedophile networks was reported by European Commissioner Ylva Johansson to be sky-high.[https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-60891801] |
| | + | The BBC link does not mention European Commissioner Ylva Johansson, it is more on the ground reporting. What I find on short notice is a general statement by Johansson about trafficking early on (21/03/2022) [https://www.euronews.com/2022/03/21/huge-risk-ukrainian-children-can-fall-into-trafficking-says-eu-commissioner]; nothing in there really speaks about what we would term VIPedophile (the VIPedophile phenomenon is included in the general area of trafficking - that is understood but still). I doubt she would speak about it at all .. so when there is a distinction between sex-trafficking and VIPedophile the text should not conflate it. |
| | + | --[[User:Sunvalley|Sunvalley]] ([[User talk:Sunvalley|talk]]) 11:51, 12 September 2023 (UTC) |
| | + | :Good catch. I added the term because of the Office to Monitor and Combat Trafficking in Persons accusations in the last ref; https://www.state.gov/reports/2022-trafficking-in-persons-report/ukraine/ that accused dozens of UKR officials of kidnapping orphans in sex trafficking networks, which would be enough for a VIPedophile suspicion. I moved the claim by Johansson as that;s by her - at best - vaguely implied - to ''suggest'' the claim as alleged or hinted by the OTMCTP report which are more sufficient. This report notes (as non-english sources are in general not preferable per style guide) that high-profile cases or sex-trafficking networks by important civil servants included; "Kyiv City police counter-trafficking unit, three police officers, recruiters accused of trafficking Ukrainians into a drug-trafficking ring in Russia, and a teacher at a government-run boarding school for orphans in Kharkiv who attempted to sell one of her students" [[User:Jun|Jun]] ([[User talk:Jun|talk]]) 12:24, 12 September 2023 (UTC) |
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| | ==References== | | ==References== |
| | {{reflist}} | | {{reflist}} |
Archived discussion are here
Jun, the section 'Vanishing people', what exactly do you want to say there? I hardly follow. And is a link to one (not small) Wikipedia article the citation for that? Please have a look. -- Sunvalley (talk) 00:08, 13 July 2023 (UTC)
- I tried merging the "PMC" Underground bases and deportations claims a year ago, but WP changed it and split all those parts before I added all refs. I just kept the Deportations. The D.U.M.B (see; https://theconversation.com/going-underground-ukraines-subterranean-fighters-highlight-the-benefit-and-long-history-of-tunnels-in-warfare-181454, https://www.firstpost.com/explainers/russia-ukraine-war-underground-cities-bakhmut-soledar-salt-mines-wagner-group-11959712.html & https://defence-blog.com/ukraine-shows-off-underground-base-for-himars/) and PMCs/Sleeper cell/miliatry abduction (added now)/hitmen network (Academi, Wagner now have their own pages. A redirect and sub-header in the future will be enough for them. Good catch. Jun (talk) 19:07, 13 July 2023 (UTC)
Russian sources -
I can't find anything for this, and it's a month, and we've almost reached the 50k limit, so for now, I've removed the following user:Sunvalley.
The attempt at Kiev was thought of as a diversion by Scott Ritter, in order to force Ukraine to split focus and power to some extent away from the main battle line.[1] A Russian military commander later clarified that they thought the mood in the population would swing in their favor, but nothing of the sort did happen even remotely, so they adjusted strategy accordingly.[2] Jun (talk) 12:27, 8 August 2023 (UTC)
- updated with the missing links today -- Sunvalley (talk) 10:05, 3 September 2023 (UTC)
50k
Per Style guide, will everyone please try to keep the article under 50k bytes? When new content has to be added, please be reminded to move less relevant content to other pages. We still have 30% of stubs. Even 9-11, Covid or all US elections pages combined have less bytes.
So, when over 50k bytes, just try to move some content and leave a forwarded redirect:
- Full article: Example
There is no mass message extension yet to edit, so please be reminded that in the future content may be moved with reasoning placed here, as in the past. Like I did with 3 sub-pages, more sub-pages are welcome, changing the names of the current one as well.
Jun (talk) 04:15, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
Sex trafficking
From the current version of the article:
Demand for Ukrainian women by VIPedophile networks was reported by European Commissioner Ylva Johansson to be sky-high.[1]
The BBC link does not mention European Commissioner Ylva Johansson, it is more on the ground reporting. What I find on short notice is a general statement by Johansson about trafficking early on (21/03/2022) [2]; nothing in there really speaks about what we would term VIPedophile (the VIPedophile phenomenon is included in the general area of trafficking - that is understood but still). I doubt she would speak about it at all .. so when there is a distinction between sex-trafficking and VIPedophile the text should not conflate it.
--Sunvalley (talk) 11:51, 12 September 2023 (UTC)
- Good catch. I added the term because of the Office to Monitor and Combat Trafficking in Persons accusations in the last ref; https://www.state.gov/reports/2022-trafficking-in-persons-report/ukraine/ that accused dozens of UKR officials of kidnapping orphans in sex trafficking networks, which would be enough for a VIPedophile suspicion. I moved the claim by Johansson as that;s by her - at best - vaguely implied - to suggest the claim as alleged or hinted by the OTMCTP report which are more sufficient. This report notes (as non-english sources are in general not preferable per style guide) that high-profile cases or sex-trafficking networks by important civil servants included; "Kyiv City police counter-trafficking unit, three police officers, recruiters accused of trafficking Ukrainians into a drug-trafficking ring in Russia, and a teacher at a government-run boarding school for orphans in Kharkiv who attempted to sell one of her students" Jun (talk) 12:24, 12 September 2023 (UTC)
References
